Unit 6 - Where in the Hotel gains access to a pool table. No need for a bar.

[namedforcat]

[Early one evening, if one happens to walk through the hotel lobby, they may notice something that hadn't been there when they had left through those doors.

A pool table.

Thanks to that odd offer of the powers that be to give them back something from home, Gaignun (somewhat jokingly) asked for the pool table from his office, and got it much to his surprise. It's a well loved pool table, well made with a few nicks and scratches in the wood work that speaks to the fact that it actually got used.

So there it sits, in the side of the hotel lobby, fully decked out with a sign posted saying "Free to play, just take good care of it."

It's owner, a face familiar to mosmt is right now just happily noodling around on it, making random shots. Feel free to join him, he's always up for a game.]


[[ooc: So the hotel now has a pool table, which is free for anyone to use. It's now a fixture there until he finds somewhere else to put it so feel free to appropriate it for other threads and what not.]]

Comments

[namedforcat]

I'll admit, I have heard Ms. Pendragon over the network, she is a very strong willed woman isn't she, much like the King Arthur of the legends. [No, he doesn't know she's the 'real' one.]

However, Diarmuid has a good sense of character judgement I think. Whatever your political differences may be, she may still be a 'good person'.

[truthsnomiracle]

I had expected her to be more open-minded, given her alleged progressive views for her time; in that, she proved to be a disappointment.

And yet, the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions, particularly among those who believe themselves morally superior. [Edgeworth glances at one of his silver, intricately designed cufflinks...]

[namedforcat]

Did she say why she didn't agree with you?

[truthsnomiracle]

Yes. For one thing, she insists that debates are only a waste of time, slowing decisions down to no useful effect when a single, implied superior person can do as well. She also thinks that sharing the burden of leadership doesn't diminish it on the individual level, and that only one person should suffer for the sake of everyone else. She also claims that a king is necessarily a hero to his people, and denies both the possibility of one being fallible and the temptations of scheming and bloodshed that come of placing absolute power in a singular position. Finally, she believes that the continued existence of both crime and the division between the rich and the poor is somehow proof that modern political systems don't work.

[namedforcat]

I can see her line of thought. Councils aren't immune to a lot of those points either. There will be position jostling, there will be long series of debates, and it is very hard work.

Monarchs and groups can be fallible, after all, they are but selfish creatures...

[truthsnomiracle]

And yet debate is vitally important if fallibility and selfishness are to be overcome! What keeps a king in check -- the knife of an assassin sent by their even more selfish next of kin?!

[Did this hit some kind of nerve?]

[namedforcat]

Debate is important, yes. It's too bad that there isn't a way to combine both systems to have something that works perfectly. Though whatever way we go, it must be clear that those in power are subject to their own laws.

[truthsnomiracle]

Unfortunately, perfection is a lie; its only value is in the excellence one can attain in striving for it. Even laws themselves are no exception, as I was forced to realize shortly before my arrival here.

Indeed, I've seen for myself on several occasions why no one can be allowed to be above the law. (If it weren't true, Miss Onimaru's rage toward me would have been entirely unfounded.)

[namedforcat]

Indeed, perfection is a lie. [A note of steel enters his voice at this statement, though it is quickly gone by his next one. He once knew someone who sought to rise above the level of human to become a God, perfection.]

However, we can come close. Keep doing what you're doing, talking to the various inhabitants of this place. Gather their opinions and make yourself known. Gather like minded people and state your case. Just be calm and reasonable, and willing to take other people's suggestions into account.

[truthsnomiracle]

[Given what's on his mind, Edgeworth can't help but hear a double meaning in "keep doing what you're doing..."

"...I think you should continue on as you have been. Whether you think you have the right to or not, no one can deny that you are helping people by doing so."]

Indeed, I intend to do no less. I merely yearn for some way to do more.

[namedforcat]

Beyond running a campaign for leadership, I don't know what else you can do at this point.

But the main benefit of this is that you are getting people thinking about what is going on, and possible solutions. You'd be surprised how many people just go with the flow never really realizing there is a problem until it happens twice or three times.

[truthsnomiracle]

I-I have no desire to sacrifice my ability to pursue the truth by burdening myself with leadership!

[namedforcat]

[Oh Edgeworth, that reaction was priceless, though all that shows on Gaignun's face is a faint smile.]

I figured you would say something along those lines. Now, tell me more about your ideas for this place.

I hope this deer is sufficiently teal.

[truthsnomiracle]

Er... yes. Before there can be law enforcement, we need to consider laws themselves. As I mentioned before, a few of the native laws only take ordinary situations into account rather than the one we find ourselves in, and, er, naturally don't take the existence of the supernatural into account. [Boy, was that still weird to say.] I have no illusions that we need an entire tome to account for the differences, however, nor that anything so extensive would be welcomed. Nevertheless, defining these things is vital for the sake of having a clear line between the exercise of criminal justice and acts of vengeance. Such definitions need to be simple as well, given that enough of community needs to understand what actions they must avoid for there to be a significant chance of the ignorant being prevented from accidentally committing a crime.

Next, there is the matter of policing. Attempting to limit that to a subset of our small yet thoroughly armed community strikes me as a fool's errand, especially given that police are a relatively modern invention and quite a few of those those most capable of apprehending suspects are anything but modern. Our focus should instead be on ensuring that everyone is aware of the need to restrain themselves when acting to stop fellow kidnappees from doing harm and applies that awareness instead. I expect us to need to prove cases of self-defense and the defense of others on a regular basis due to failures to adhere perfectly to such guidelines, however.

Concerning court, due to our small population we effectively can't put together unbiased juries with no connection to anyone involved as is the law of this country -- we'd need to rely on a system more akin to that of my home district, with only prosecution, defense, and a judge to consider. However, we have several obstacles to overcome; not only am I the only lawyer of any sort remaining, but as we've discussed, more than a few people fail to see the need for this step at all. I've spoken with one woman who has acted as a referee in the past and is willing to learn about being a judge, but the problem of our lacking defense attorneys or another prosecutor is daunting. [Edgeworth looks off to the side and grabs one elbow with the opposite hand briefly.] ...It's undoubtedly apparent that I've yet to hear anyone else's opinion on alternative forms of court, merely whether or not it should exist at all.

Finally, punishment will be an extreme challenge. It isn't only punishment for high crimes such as serial killings that our system needs to be able to account for -- lesser crimes are in need of effective punishment too. Unfortunately, the only potentially effective punishment I've devised as yet is only appropriate to the most heinous of crimes: implanting a tracking microchip in people convicted of such extreme violence and distributing a program to our phones that allows us to track them and alerts us to their proximity. The punishment wouldn't strip them of the protection of the law, merely make it more difficult for them to do further harm or escape further punishment should they commit further crimes; those who abuse such tracking to harm felons who have no intention of doing anything else wrong would need to be prosecuted themselves. I've informed Mr. Ridgeley and Mr. Kihara of this idea and requested that they find a way to make such microchip tracking devices function even during the Dark Hour. It's less of a punishment than I would prefer -- and, as others have pointed out, not impossible to overcome -- yet it's the best solution that I've learned of or can conceive of that's neither excessively cruel, morally questionable, nor essentially useless under the circumstances.

As for cases more akin to that of Onimaru Miki, I must admit that I'm at a loss for what we could sentence such a criminal to. It isn't as though we could obtain the necessary sanction to use the prison, even if it weren't essentially made of cardboard to most of us during the Dark Hour, nor can a population as small as ours spare guards any more than it can spare a separate police force. While Miss Onimaru among others have submitted to brief terms of incarceration despite possessing the ability to escape, we can't very well rely on the honor system -- respect for the law isn't much more commonplace among criminals than respect for one's prey is among predators. Fines present the problem of what, precisely, we would direct the funds to; it isn't as though we'd have a complete government with costly projects to fund, and anyone personally profiting from them would quickly breed corruption. Community service is too lenient a price to pay for assault, though I'm certain it would be useful as a sentence for lesser crimes.

That deer is so teal, it glows in the dark

[namedforcat]

Tracking chips. [Oh dear, he doesn't like the sound of that. Even though he knows Edgeworth is trying his hardest and to be fair it is hard to come up with punishments and laws without precedents, but those two words left a slightly bad taste in his mouth.

No. Let us not go into the personal, after all there are other reasons too. Now, to test the armor of Edgeworth's defense. 'Morally questionable' can wait.]

I'm afraid, I see a few small problems in that idea, though if you've got answers for them I am more then willing to hear them.

I know you said that the tracking chips were for 'the most heinous of crimes', but tracking chips depend on almost an honor system. For some, yes, the idea of tracking would dissuade them from perpetrating more crimes, but what about those who see it as a challenge? Or don't care. Or who want the audience? Those who are wont to commit the kinds of crimes you're thinking about, also are most likely those who have trained enough to become the most powerful of us.

As for the chips themselves, you even acknowledged that they may be easy to circumvent. If they are external, they would be easy enough to trick or even pass on to a hapless passerby. If you go the under the skin route, what is to stop them from just tearing them out? Not to mention getting them implanted would require a fully trained doctor, medical resources, and making sure that they heal right so you are not liable for any infections that are caused by it.

Also, how are you going to test these? While I have no doubts about Allen's work, there still will have to be trials run. I also know this is a small part of what you just told me, but it is the first thing I would like to deal with.

[truthsnomiracle]

It's understandable that this would be the point you would focus on -- I concede that it's easily the most troublesome aspect.

If someone who has already been tracked in such a way commits further crimes, further punishment in the form of temporary outlaw status is what occurs to me. While I realize the harshness of that particular solution, particularly in context, we have remarkably few viable alternatives to consider, nor do I believe that we could so easily restrain the rage of the more self-righteous in our numbers in such a circumstance. I wouldn't be dredging up a discarded practice otherwise.

They would be internal, yes -- that possibility is precisely why I began giving tracking chips consideration to begin with. Concerning removal, I had hoped that it would be possible to plant them at a sufficient depth at a random and undisclosed point of the body to complicate the matter. Apart from those considerations, I unfortunately have no ideas as to how to prevent their removal, nor do I yet know how to deal with the medical aspects you cite.

Concerning testing, that consideration is one I'm leaving to the engineers.

[namedforcat]

Temporary outlaw status? While in normal communities that would actually be a punishment, I don't think it would work the way you plan here. For one thing, it would not bar them from getting anything they wanted. After all the natives here would know nothing of it and thus help them in whatever way was needed. However, I will admit that for some, who thrive on the recognition or company of their peers, this status would be a punishment. But what of the people that just don't care?

Secondly, do you know know many of the 'hero' types we've been seeing lately? Not to mention people who would want to prove themselves or thought you were being too lenient, I worry for their safety almost more then the criminals. Again, I am perhaps worrying a little too much about power difference.

[He sighed, relaxing a little and leaning up against the pool table. It actually felt rather nice being able to have debates like this again, the one part of politics he actually enjoyed somewhat.]

Still, it is not like we can simply do nothing. I'm glad that these issues are starting to be discussed. This is a start.

[truthsnomiracle]

I was thinking less of the inability to participate in society at large -- clearly, we have no power over that -- and more of a willingness to look the other way should other kidnappees wish to exact vengeance within the allotted time. Do keep in mind that one of the defining features of outlaw status was that any crimes committed against an outlaw weren't recognized as being crimes at all.

Even the most stubborn among us could not deny forever that imprisonment and execution are impossible. Attempting to explain that torture and brainwashing would be unacceptable to significant portions of our population may prove harder depending on the circumstances, however.

I only hope that we can find others whom we can discuss such matters with to this degree quickly.

[namedforcat]

Thus transferring punishment into the hands of the populace at large. While I approve of the concept, I worry about how far it will be taken. However I worry about your comment about outlaws and crimes against them. Perhaps that is legally true but it is morally false. Still, I have to admit that in my universe vigilantism is a little more prevalent then I would like.

[truthsnomiracle]

I fully admit that the implications of outlaw status are more morally questionable than those of many other punishments. That's an important reason why, given little choice but to consider it in the case of repeat felony offenders, I insist that it ought to be a temporary status. It is, however, a fact that every punishment in existence is in some way a violation of human rights; it's merely a matter of which of the available possibilities are both useful and acceptable to society. Unfortunately, here it seems altogether too likely that if there is no circumstance whatsoever in which personal retribution is allowed, there are those among us who wouldn't accept being told to refrain from it. Compromise is often a grim process.

[namedforcat]

Compromise...indeed it is. So is punishment in fact. In a perfect world we wouldn't need it, but even here it is hardly a perfect world. [He does show a bit of sorrow during this statement.]

[truthsnomiracle]

Unfortunately, darkness shall always claw at the heart of mankind. (Admittedly, my life might very well be without meaning if it did not.)

There is, of course, the danger with the presence of outlaw status as a punishment that others will attempt to frame particularly unpopular felons, but the tracking system itself could provide evidence exonerating them for such crimes, either directly or through evidence of tampering. That makes it all the more important that sentences of outlaw status only be applicable to those already sentenced to tracking.

[namedforcat]

Hm, that may be a good way to do it if that is indeed the route we wish to go. [He looks rather thoughtful.]

Thankfully I don't think that there is anyone that would deliberately try to get themselves into that position, but even if there was they would be few and far between.

You will also have to get people to agree on what kind of crime warrants this. Everyone seems to have different definitions of what is wrong and right it seems.

[truthsnomiracle]

I believe that most sane people would agree that mass murder or serial killing would count, if nothing else. I imagine that nearly as many would sufficiently condemn its lustful equal on a similar scale. The question becomes how much farther back than that the line ought to be drawn. Further complicating the matter is the distressing lack of viable middle ground in punishment concepts; we ought to resolve that before attempting to draw the line between them and our highest punishments.

[namedforcat]

You present a very good point, however it is unfortunately one that I would need to think on for a good amount of time before I can come up with a more satisfactory answer then "hit them in the wallet".