tvk | Unit 6 - Where in the Hotel gains access to a pool table. No need for a bar.

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gaignun kukai (nigredo)

Unit 6 - Where in the Hotel gains access to a pool table. No need for a bar.

[Early one evening, if one happens to walk through the hotel lobby, they may notice something that hadn't been there when they had left through those doors.

A pool table.

Thanks to that odd offer of the powers that be to give them back something from home, Gaignun (somewhat jokingly) asked for the pool table from his office, and got it much to his surprise. It's a well loved pool table, well made with a few nicks and scratches in the wood work that speaks to the fact that it actually got used.

So there it sits, in the side of the hotel lobby, fully decked out with a sign posted saying "Free to play, just take good care of it."

It's owner, a face familiar to mosmt is right now just happily noodling around on it, making random shots. Feel free to join him, he's always up for a game.]

[[ooc: So the hotel now has a pool table, which is free for anyone to use. It's now a fixture there until he finds somewhere else to put it so feel free to appropriate it for other threads and what not.]]

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

If there are no limits on what we allow each other to do as a community, how many others will be hurt? How many of those here hold themselves back merely because they're used to having to face the consequences of their actions, and for how long will peace persist if violence against one another remains the only significant consequence? Just last month, we saw an example of our community's lack of self-discipline. If we allow things to continue as they are, in time we'll find ourselves living in a bloodbath, whether due to criminals and vigilantes perpetuating ever-growing cycles of vengeance or other, more warlike kidnappees fighting over the opportunity to fill our increasingly apparent power vacuum! [Edgeworth smacks the pool table reflexively; good thing this one's made of sterner stuff than most, right?] Whether people enjoy lines being drawn or not, a few must be for their own sakes.

While the inefficiency in cases such as Ryuunosuke's are regrettable, how do you propose that it could be avoided? By the time the native trial ended, those present believed that I had prosecuted him for all but one of the murders that occurred instead of roughly half of them -- the fact that any of us had been murdered at all was entirely forgotten! [Another BANG.] I cannot prosecute crimes against us under these conditions, Mr. Kukai! Consider as well the case of Onimaru Miki -- her entire motive for her actions was rooted in things that we alone can perceive and retain knowledge of. Had I not convinced her to plead guilty, her life would have been ruined by a ruling of insanity!

Concerning punishment, admittedly I'm at a loss for what we could sentence the likes of Miss Onimaru to under the circumstances; however, I've had a flash of inspiration concerning a punishment for Ryuunosuke and others like him, which Mr. Ridgeley and Mr. Kihara are both interested in helping to make a reality.

As for your assertion that a law of our own would give the impression that we're above native law, what about this situation does not? The very existence of our Personas and our inevitable return from death could easily lead one to consider themselves something superior to the natives. These same factors also serve as reasons why depraved sorts would have no fear of native law. Furthermore, some laws that make sense in an ordinary society are ill-suited to our own situation; for example, dueling is illegal, yet try to imagine all the consequences were anyone to attempt to enforce such a ban rather than simply require proof of mutual consent.

[Is Edgeworth standing a little straighter?]

[Perfect, this is what he wanted to see. While he could understand the feeling behind 'Because it's the right thing to do', sometimes the right thing to do was handled very shoddily.Not to mention not well thought out and emotion charged (*cough*Stupid Jr*cough*). Perhaps bringing up these points may lower Edgeworth's opinion of him somewhat, but it was worth it to make sure all angles were covered. Defense must be iron-clad after all.

Also, thank goodness he'd splurged on the very solid real wood that the pool table was made of.]

Let us focus this discussion on one point at a time, since they each must be considered to their full potential. Starting with the issue of power. While I am pleased to hear that you have thought of a way that may serve as an effective punishment in this situation, how will you make the rest of the community agree to it's implementation. Just because something is 'logical' does not mean it will be accepted, or work right off the bat.

As a whole we lack leadership, though some, like Allen, have stepped up here and there. But they only have volunteered for specific tasks. There is a very real possibility that your suggestion will not be accepted, and if you seek to enforce it with out the backing of the majority of the community, you may well be seen as the very thing you are trying to prevent. We do not have a system for implementing these things with minimal fuss in the community yet.

I'm well aware of the dangers of a false step; to simply propose something of this nature publicly without ample preparation would be to pull back the curtain to reveal an empty stage. The last thing I wish to do is to create chaos in the process of proposing a path to order. However, for lack of a more expedient approach, the only action I've been taking is to persuade people on an individual level. More than one person has noted the obvious pitfall to my approach, though none so far have objected to the basic theory.

I agree that our lack of leadership is problematic. Worse still, there are those among the kidnappees who I fear might attempt to take the role of leader by force if the need for leadership were made too obvious -- Gilgamesh, for example. Subtlety is vital to avoiding all-out war in the process of introducing structure.

[While he's firm, Edgeworth doesn't seem to disapprove of the continued argument.]

[That may be a small look of 'ick' that just passed on Gaignun's face at the mention of Gilgamesh taking control of the persona using community. A man who does not value books should not be in charge of anything.]

Royalty, deities, knaves, we're a rather motley crew here now. I'm almost wondering if a council based leadership attempt might go down more smoothly then a spear headed one...[He may be slightly musing to himself, but he's not actively trying to get the conversation off track.]

What you may want to do in that case, is get the community involved in the planning process of this. I've found that people are more apt to be happier with something that they had a hand in creating from the get go. Especially in a climate like this, where secrets are going to be met with more suspicion then usual.

[And there may well have been a flicker of sympathy in those steely eyes of Edgeworth's when that wince happened.]

While I agree that a council would be preferable for several reasons, there are others here who insist, in some cases quite stubbornly -- [here Edgeworth hmphs, thinking of one Arturia Pendragon] -- that dictatorship is preferable, whatever name they may prefer to dress the concept up with. They have too much faith in what a single person can do and place too much weight on speed and decisiveness.

I don't suppose you have any suggestions concerning how to accomplish this? I've hardly been secretive, merely discreet.

I'm sorry, that came out rather accusatory, didn't it. Anyways, as for the council issue, I have a few thoughts.

Back home, in my universe, I've seen all types of leadership. The Federation, for example uses the leaders of the planets under it's wing as a council, headed by a few powerful ones. Ormus, however, follows a singular patriarch. Miltia also rules by council, but it's headed by a retired general who detached himself from the Federation forces.

To be honest, it all comes down to what people are used to. I don't know who you're speaking of with the 'dictatorship' comment, but if that is what they're used to, it's what they are going to push for. Familiarity with a system. Personally I used a small council system, but that also can be seen as a bit of a dictatorship in itself.

Our community also happens to be small enough for direct democracy to be a viable option in theory, but in practice cultural disagreements and some kidnappees' refusal to regard others as equals would most likely be larger obstacles to that approach than to others. I see Arturia Pendragon in particular as a potential obstacle to whatever approach we may advocate; she very stubbornly insists on the superiority of having a king on ideological grounds, and despite her claims to the contrary, no amount of logic or evidence will dissuade her from anything she believes.

Mm, you have a point there. Still, whatever gets come up with must have a majority support, especially of those who have the skill set to challenge it, or disregard it. Though there will be some that won't be happy no matter what gets chosen. However, we can not just disregard them.

There is also the question of who among the more powerful here would side with whom. For example, while Diarmuid is a... friend, he also holds Ms. Pendragon in high regard.

[And could it be more obvious that he's trying to hide that this bothers him?]

Miss Onimaru has admitted to spreading rumors about me, as well.

I'll admit, I have heard Ms. Pendragon over the network, she is a very strong willed woman isn't she, much like the King Arthur of the legends. [No, he doesn't know she's the 'real' one.]

However, Diarmuid has a good sense of character judgement I think. Whatever your political differences may be, she may still be a 'good person'.

I had expected her to be more open-minded, given her alleged progressive views for her time; in that, she proved to be a disappointment.

And yet, the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions, particularly among those who believe themselves morally superior. [Edgeworth glances at one of his silver, intricately designed cufflinks...]

Did she say why she didn't agree with you?

Yes. For one thing, she insists that debates are only a waste of time, slowing decisions down to no useful effect when a single, implied superior person can do as well. She also thinks that sharing the burden of leadership doesn't diminish it on the individual level, and that only one person should suffer for the sake of everyone else. She also claims that a king is necessarily a hero to his people, and denies both the possibility of one being fallible and the temptations of scheming and bloodshed that come of placing absolute power in a singular position. Finally, she believes that the continued existence of both crime and the division between the rich and the poor is somehow proof that modern political systems don't work.

I can see her line of thought. Councils aren't immune to a lot of those points either. There will be position jostling, there will be long series of debates, and it is very hard work.

Monarchs and groups can be fallible, after all, they are but selfish creatures...

And yet debate is vitally important if fallibility and selfishness are to be overcome! What keeps a king in check -- the knife of an assassin sent by their even more selfish next of kin?!

[Did this hit some kind of nerve?]

Debate is important, yes. It's too bad that there isn't a way to combine both systems to have something that works perfectly. Though whatever way we go, it must be clear that those in power are subject to their own laws.

Edited (Whelp, ) 2012-04-17 06:57 (UTC)

Unfortunately, perfection is a lie; its only value is in the excellence one can attain in striving for it. Even laws themselves are no exception, as I was forced to realize shortly before my arrival here.

Indeed, I've seen for myself on several occasions why no one can be allowed to be above the law. (If it weren't true, Miss Onimaru's rage toward me would have been entirely unfounded.)

Indeed, perfection is a lie. [A note of steel enters his voice at this statement, though it is quickly gone by his next one. He once knew someone who sought to rise above the level of human to become a God, perfection.]

However, we can come close. Keep doing what you're doing, talking to the various inhabitants of this place. Gather their opinions and make yourself known. Gather like minded people and state your case. Just be calm and reasonable, and willing to take other people's suggestions into account.

[Given what's on his mind, Edgeworth can't help but hear a double meaning in "keep doing what you're doing..."

"...I think you should continue on as you have been. Whether you think you have the right to or not, no one can deny that you are helping people by doing so."]

Indeed, I intend to do no less. I merely yearn for some way to do more.

Beyond running a campaign for leadership, I don't know what else you can do at this point.

But the main benefit of this is that you are getting people thinking about what is going on, and possible solutions. You'd be surprised how many people just go with the flow never really realizing there is a problem until it happens twice or three times.

I-I have no desire to sacrifice my ability to pursue the truth by burdening myself with leadership!

[Oh Edgeworth, that reaction was priceless, though all that shows on Gaignun's face is a faint smile.]

I figured you would say something along those lines. Now, tell me more about your ideas for this place.

Edited (stupid keyboard) 2012-04-17 20:09 (UTC)

Er... yes. Before there can be law enforcement, we need to consider laws themselves. As I mentioned before, a few of the native laws only take ordinary situations into account rather than the one we find ourselves in, and, er, naturally don't take the existence of the supernatural into account. [Boy, was that still weird to say.] I have no illusions that we need an entire tome to account for the differences, however, nor that anything so extensive would be welcomed. Nevertheless, defining these things is vital for the sake of having a clear line between the exercise of criminal justice and acts of vengeance. Such definitions need to be simple as well, given that enough of community needs to understand what actions they must avoid for there to be a significant chance of the ignorant being prevented from accidentally committing a crime.

Next, there is the matter of policing. Attempting to limit that to a subset of our small yet thoroughly armed community strikes me as a fool's errand, especially given that police are a relatively modern invention and quite a few of those those most capable of apprehending suspects are anything but modern. Our focus should instead be on ensuring that everyone is aware of the need to restrain themselves when acting to stop fellow kidnappees from doing harm and applies that awareness instead. I expect us to need to prove cases of self-defense and the defense of others on a regular basis due to failures to adhere perfectly to such guidelines, however.

Concerning court, due to our small population we effectively can't put together unbiased juries with no connection to anyone involved as is the law of this country -- we'd need to rely on a system more akin to that of my home district, with only prosecution, defense, and a judge to consider. However, we have several obstacles to overcome; not only am I the only lawyer of any sort remaining, but as we've discussed, more than a few people fail to see the need for this step at all. I've spoken with one woman who has acted as a referee in the past and is willing to learn about being a judge, but the problem of our lacking defense attorneys or another prosecutor is daunting. [Edgeworth looks off to the side and grabs one elbow with the opposite hand briefly.] ...It's undoubtedly apparent that I've yet to hear anyone else's opinion on alternative forms of court, merely whether or not it should exist at all.

Finally, punishment will be an extreme challenge. It isn't only punishment for high crimes such as serial killings that our system needs to be able to account for -- lesser crimes are in need of effective punishment too. Unfortunately, the only potentially effective punishment I've devised as yet is only appropriate to the most heinous of crimes: implanting a tracking microchip in people convicted of such extreme violence and distributing a program to our phones that allows us to track them and alerts us to their proximity. The punishment wouldn't strip them of the protection of the law, merely make it more difficult for them to do further harm or escape further punishment should they commit further crimes; those who abuse such tracking to harm felons who have no intention of doing anything else wrong would need to be prosecuted themselves. I've informed Mr. Ridgeley and Mr. Kihara of this idea and requested that they find a way to make such microchip tracking devices function even during the Dark Hour. It's less of a punishment than I would prefer -- and, as others have pointed out, not impossible to overcome -- yet it's the best solution that I've learned of or can conceive of that's neither excessively cruel, morally questionable, nor essentially useless under the circumstances.

As for cases more akin to that of Onimaru Miki, I must admit that I'm at a loss for what we could sentence such a criminal to. It isn't as though we could obtain the necessary sanction to use the prison, even if it weren't essentially made of cardboard to most of us during the Dark Hour, nor can a population as small as ours spare guards any more than it can spare a separate police force. While Miss Onimaru among others have submitted to brief terms of incarceration despite possessing the ability to escape, we can't very well rely on the honor system -- respect for the law isn't much more commonplace among criminals than respect for one's prey is among predators. Fines present the problem of what, precisely, we would direct the funds to; it isn't as though we'd have a complete government with costly projects to fund, and anyone personally profiting from them would quickly breed corruption. Community service is too lenient a price to pay for assault, though I'm certain it would be useful as a sentence for lesser crimes.

Tracking chips. [Oh dear, he doesn't like the sound of that. Even though he knows Edgeworth is trying his hardest and to be fair it is hard to come up with punishments and laws without precedents, but those two words left a slightly bad taste in his mouth.

No. Let us not go into the personal, after all there are other reasons too. Now, to test the armor of Edgeworth's defense. 'Morally questionable' can wait.]

I'm afraid, I see a few small problems in that idea, though if you've got answers for them I am more then willing to hear them.

I know you said that the tracking chips were for 'the most heinous of crimes', but tracking chips depend on almost an honor system. For some, yes, the idea of tracking would dissuade them from perpetrating more crimes, but what about those who see it as a challenge? Or don't care. Or who want the audience? Those who are wont to commit the kinds of crimes you're thinking about, also are most likely those who have trained enough to become the most powerful of us.

As for the chips themselves, you even acknowledged that they may be easy to circumvent. If they are external, they would be easy enough to trick or even pass on to a hapless passerby. If you go the under the skin route, what is to stop them from just tearing them out? Not to mention getting them implanted would require a fully trained doctor, medical resources, and making sure that they heal right so you are not liable for any infections that are caused by it.

Also, how are you going to test these? While I have no doubts about Allen's work, there still will have to be trials run. I also know this is a small part of what you just told me, but it is the first thing I would like to deal with.

Edited (I will get this grammer thing right yet.) 2012-04-23 18:47 (UTC)

It's understandable that this would be the point you would focus on -- I concede that it's easily the most troublesome aspect.

If someone who has already been tracked in such a way commits further crimes, further punishment in the form of temporary outlaw status is what occurs to me. While I realize the harshness of that particular solution, particularly in context, we have remarkably few viable alternatives to consider, nor do I believe that we could so easily restrain the rage of the more self-righteous in our numbers in such a circumstance. I wouldn't be dredging up a discarded practice otherwise.

They would be internal, yes -- that possibility is precisely why I began giving tracking chips consideration to begin with. Concerning removal, I had hoped that it would be possible to plant them at a sufficient depth at a random and undisclosed point of the body to complicate the matter. Apart from those considerations, I unfortunately have no ideas as to how to prevent their removal, nor do I yet know how to deal with the medical aspects you cite.

Concerning testing, that consideration is one I'm leaving to the engineers.

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I hope this deer is sufficiently teal.

That deer is so teal, it glows in the dark

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