tvk | Unit 6 - Where in the Hotel gains access to a pool table. No need for a bar.

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gaignun kukai (nigredo)

Unit 6 - Where in the Hotel gains access to a pool table. No need for a bar.

[Early one evening, if one happens to walk through the hotel lobby, they may notice something that hadn't been there when they had left through those doors.

A pool table.

Thanks to that odd offer of the powers that be to give them back something from home, Gaignun (somewhat jokingly) asked for the pool table from his office, and got it much to his surprise. It's a well loved pool table, well made with a few nicks and scratches in the wood work that speaks to the fact that it actually got used.

So there it sits, in the side of the hotel lobby, fully decked out with a sign posted saying "Free to play, just take good care of it."

It's owner, a face familiar to mosmt is right now just happily noodling around on it, making random shots. Feel free to join him, he's always up for a game.]

[[ooc: So the hotel now has a pool table, which is free for anyone to use. It's now a fixture there until he finds somewhere else to put it so feel free to appropriate it for other threads and what not.]]

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I see your point. We can't have a separate court, no matter how much practical sense it makes. No matter where we're from we're under the judicial system of this place and should abide by it. Should we start ignoring it, why would we stay true to our own, should we develop one.

[He's interested to see Edgeworth's thought process on all this]

OBJECTION!

If you believe that to be the point I was making, Mr. Kukai, then you've forgotten a key fact -- the entire reason why we do require a separate justice system is that the native one is inadequate to the task of keeping order amongst kidnappees! Aside from the fact that the natives are unaware of the supernatural aspects of the situation and cannot be made aware, as well as the facts that most of us cannot be imprisoned in any ordinary jail for longer than we wish to be and none of us can be executed to any useful effect, let us not forget that for obvious reasons the laws themselves don't reflect the realities of our own situation!

No it's not the point I think you're making. Far from it. [Coming from politics, Edgeworth's exclamation is nothing startling.]

Even if we were to have a separate judicial system, it is going cause just as many problems as it solves.

First off, development. We have a unique community here and from my experience no one likes to agree on things that impact their freedom of action, or what they believe correct action should be.

Secondly, as with the case you just worked on. Should we have a separate system, then he should be tried and convicted twice, which is a non-efficient use of resource and time. Since he's been convicted in the native court, he can hardly undergo whatever trial we propose while he's in prison there. Even if he stays, what sort of penalty can we impose that is worse or that can stick?

Thirdly, it creates an image that we are above the law of the land here. Admittedly, there are those among us who feel like that anyways because they were above the laws of their homes. [He has to sigh a little...knowing one such individual very personally.]

Admittedly my objection to your plan may be more based in ideals rather then facts, but I am curious to know all the angles of the issue.

If there are no limits on what we allow each other to do as a community, how many others will be hurt? How many of those here hold themselves back merely because they're used to having to face the consequences of their actions, and for how long will peace persist if violence against one another remains the only significant consequence? Just last month, we saw an example of our community's lack of self-discipline. If we allow things to continue as they are, in time we'll find ourselves living in a bloodbath, whether due to criminals and vigilantes perpetuating ever-growing cycles of vengeance or other, more warlike kidnappees fighting over the opportunity to fill our increasingly apparent power vacuum! [Edgeworth smacks the pool table reflexively; good thing this one's made of sterner stuff than most, right?] Whether people enjoy lines being drawn or not, a few must be for their own sakes.

While the inefficiency in cases such as Ryuunosuke's are regrettable, how do you propose that it could be avoided? By the time the native trial ended, those present believed that I had prosecuted him for all but one of the murders that occurred instead of roughly half of them -- the fact that any of us had been murdered at all was entirely forgotten! [Another BANG.] I cannot prosecute crimes against us under these conditions, Mr. Kukai! Consider as well the case of Onimaru Miki -- her entire motive for her actions was rooted in things that we alone can perceive and retain knowledge of. Had I not convinced her to plead guilty, her life would have been ruined by a ruling of insanity!

Concerning punishment, admittedly I'm at a loss for what we could sentence the likes of Miss Onimaru to under the circumstances; however, I've had a flash of inspiration concerning a punishment for Ryuunosuke and others like him, which Mr. Ridgeley and Mr. Kihara are both interested in helping to make a reality.

As for your assertion that a law of our own would give the impression that we're above native law, what about this situation does not? The very existence of our Personas and our inevitable return from death could easily lead one to consider themselves something superior to the natives. These same factors also serve as reasons why depraved sorts would have no fear of native law. Furthermore, some laws that make sense in an ordinary society are ill-suited to our own situation; for example, dueling is illegal, yet try to imagine all the consequences were anyone to attempt to enforce such a ban rather than simply require proof of mutual consent.

[Is Edgeworth standing a little straighter?]

[Perfect, this is what he wanted to see. While he could understand the feeling behind 'Because it's the right thing to do', sometimes the right thing to do was handled very shoddily.Not to mention not well thought out and emotion charged (*cough*Stupid Jr*cough*). Perhaps bringing up these points may lower Edgeworth's opinion of him somewhat, but it was worth it to make sure all angles were covered. Defense must be iron-clad after all.

Also, thank goodness he'd splurged on the very solid real wood that the pool table was made of.]

Let us focus this discussion on one point at a time, since they each must be considered to their full potential. Starting with the issue of power. While I am pleased to hear that you have thought of a way that may serve as an effective punishment in this situation, how will you make the rest of the community agree to it's implementation. Just because something is 'logical' does not mean it will be accepted, or work right off the bat.

As a whole we lack leadership, though some, like Allen, have stepped up here and there. But they only have volunteered for specific tasks. There is a very real possibility that your suggestion will not be accepted, and if you seek to enforce it with out the backing of the majority of the community, you may well be seen as the very thing you are trying to prevent. We do not have a system for implementing these things with minimal fuss in the community yet.

I'm well aware of the dangers of a false step; to simply propose something of this nature publicly without ample preparation would be to pull back the curtain to reveal an empty stage. The last thing I wish to do is to create chaos in the process of proposing a path to order. However, for lack of a more expedient approach, the only action I've been taking is to persuade people on an individual level. More than one person has noted the obvious pitfall to my approach, though none so far have objected to the basic theory.

I agree that our lack of leadership is problematic. Worse still, there are those among the kidnappees who I fear might attempt to take the role of leader by force if the need for leadership were made too obvious -- Gilgamesh, for example. Subtlety is vital to avoiding all-out war in the process of introducing structure.

[While he's firm, Edgeworth doesn't seem to disapprove of the continued argument.]

[That may be a small look of 'ick' that just passed on Gaignun's face at the mention of Gilgamesh taking control of the persona using community. A man who does not value books should not be in charge of anything.]

Royalty, deities, knaves, we're a rather motley crew here now. I'm almost wondering if a council based leadership attempt might go down more smoothly then a spear headed one...[He may be slightly musing to himself, but he's not actively trying to get the conversation off track.]

What you may want to do in that case, is get the community involved in the planning process of this. I've found that people are more apt to be happier with something that they had a hand in creating from the get go. Especially in a climate like this, where secrets are going to be met with more suspicion then usual.

[And there may well have been a flicker of sympathy in those steely eyes of Edgeworth's when that wince happened.]

While I agree that a council would be preferable for several reasons, there are others here who insist, in some cases quite stubbornly -- [here Edgeworth hmphs, thinking of one Arturia Pendragon] -- that dictatorship is preferable, whatever name they may prefer to dress the concept up with. They have too much faith in what a single person can do and place too much weight on speed and decisiveness.

I don't suppose you have any suggestions concerning how to accomplish this? I've hardly been secretive, merely discreet.

I'm sorry, that came out rather accusatory, didn't it. Anyways, as for the council issue, I have a few thoughts.

Back home, in my universe, I've seen all types of leadership. The Federation, for example uses the leaders of the planets under it's wing as a council, headed by a few powerful ones. Ormus, however, follows a singular patriarch. Miltia also rules by council, but it's headed by a retired general who detached himself from the Federation forces.

To be honest, it all comes down to what people are used to. I don't know who you're speaking of with the 'dictatorship' comment, but if that is what they're used to, it's what they are going to push for. Familiarity with a system. Personally I used a small council system, but that also can be seen as a bit of a dictatorship in itself.

Our community also happens to be small enough for direct democracy to be a viable option in theory, but in practice cultural disagreements and some kidnappees' refusal to regard others as equals would most likely be larger obstacles to that approach than to others. I see Arturia Pendragon in particular as a potential obstacle to whatever approach we may advocate; she very stubbornly insists on the superiority of having a king on ideological grounds, and despite her claims to the contrary, no amount of logic or evidence will dissuade her from anything she believes.

Mm, you have a point there. Still, whatever gets come up with must have a majority support, especially of those who have the skill set to challenge it, or disregard it. Though there will be some that won't be happy no matter what gets chosen. However, we can not just disregard them.

There is also the question of who among the more powerful here would side with whom. For example, while Diarmuid is a... friend, he also holds Ms. Pendragon in high regard.

[And could it be more obvious that he's trying to hide that this bothers him?]

Miss Onimaru has admitted to spreading rumors about me, as well.

I'll admit, I have heard Ms. Pendragon over the network, she is a very strong willed woman isn't she, much like the King Arthur of the legends. [No, he doesn't know she's the 'real' one.]

However, Diarmuid has a good sense of character judgement I think. Whatever your political differences may be, she may still be a 'good person'.

I had expected her to be more open-minded, given her alleged progressive views for her time; in that, she proved to be a disappointment.

And yet, the road to hell is indeed paved with good intentions, particularly among those who believe themselves morally superior. [Edgeworth glances at one of his silver, intricately designed cufflinks...]

Did she say why she didn't agree with you?

Yes. For one thing, she insists that debates are only a waste of time, slowing decisions down to no useful effect when a single, implied superior person can do as well. She also thinks that sharing the burden of leadership doesn't diminish it on the individual level, and that only one person should suffer for the sake of everyone else. She also claims that a king is necessarily a hero to his people, and denies both the possibility of one being fallible and the temptations of scheming and bloodshed that come of placing absolute power in a singular position. Finally, she believes that the continued existence of both crime and the division between the rich and the poor is somehow proof that modern political systems don't work.

I can see her line of thought. Councils aren't immune to a lot of those points either. There will be position jostling, there will be long series of debates, and it is very hard work.

Monarchs and groups can be fallible, after all, they are but selfish creatures...

And yet debate is vitally important if fallibility and selfishness are to be overcome! What keeps a king in check -- the knife of an assassin sent by their even more selfish next of kin?!

[Did this hit some kind of nerve?]

Debate is important, yes. It's too bad that there isn't a way to combine both systems to have something that works perfectly. Though whatever way we go, it must be clear that those in power are subject to their own laws.

Edited (Whelp, ) 2012-04-17 06:57 (UTC)

Unfortunately, perfection is a lie; its only value is in the excellence one can attain in striving for it. Even laws themselves are no exception, as I was forced to realize shortly before my arrival here.

Indeed, I've seen for myself on several occasions why no one can be allowed to be above the law. (If it weren't true, Miss Onimaru's rage toward me would have been entirely unfounded.)

Indeed, perfection is a lie. [A note of steel enters his voice at this statement, though it is quickly gone by his next one. He once knew someone who sought to rise above the level of human to become a God, perfection.]

However, we can come close. Keep doing what you're doing, talking to the various inhabitants of this place. Gather their opinions and make yourself known. Gather like minded people and state your case. Just be calm and reasonable, and willing to take other people's suggestions into account.

[Given what's on his mind, Edgeworth can't help but hear a double meaning in "keep doing what you're doing..."

"...I think you should continue on as you have been. Whether you think you have the right to or not, no one can deny that you are helping people by doing so."]

Indeed, I intend to do no less. I merely yearn for some way to do more.

Beyond running a campaign for leadership, I don't know what else you can do at this point.

But the main benefit of this is that you are getting people thinking about what is going on, and possible solutions. You'd be surprised how many people just go with the flow never really realizing there is a problem until it happens twice or three times.

I-I have no desire to sacrifice my ability to pursue the truth by burdening myself with leadership!

[Oh Edgeworth, that reaction was priceless, though all that shows on Gaignun's face is a faint smile.]

I figured you would say something along those lines. Now, tell me more about your ideas for this place.

Edited (stupid keyboard) 2012-04-17 20:09 (UTC)

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